July '99
Steven Collins, Washington
I wish a Miata (or MX-5 as it's known in these parts) was living in my garage, but at this point in time it's not in the cards. Because I'm driving something different each week - occasionally a couple of different cars in a given week - what's in my garage on a given day is whatever I'm writing about. And today that means a Holden Calais Series II Gen II V8. Next week I'm driving an Alfa Romeo 156 Selespeed. After that, a Daewoo.
My wife still isn't completely comfortable driving on the 'wrong' side of the road in a right-hand drive car, and she detests changing gear with her left hand. As she's so proud to point out, she doesn't know how to drive an automatic (her own way of taking a jab at all those folks who 'don't know' how to drive a manual). With a commute of about 40metres (150feet), she finds it difficult rationalize owning a car that'll sit in the garage.
Now IF there was one in there, it'd be a late 1992 1.6. Color would certainly be a point of argument with Karen and I. It'd be either Mariner Blue or Sunburst Yellow (or 'Malibu Gold' as it was known in Australia). And I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to who would win in such a discussion. But I'd probably be putting my money on Karen...
bwob
Jeff Fernald, Orlando, FL
Jeez, as much as I'd love to answer your question, well, I just can't. I see you're far, far to clever for me. Why I should have instinctively known somebody would figure out that I can't answer any question. Why, I couldn't even tell you what my favorite color is, so there's no way whatsoever I could possibly answer your incisive question. None. Zip. Nada.
Then again I could be lying. I might have had that list made to throw you off the track, or perhaps to direct the questions in a specific area, eventually allowing me to unleash a seething tirade against a hideous conspiracy involving a certain brand of socks, the Trilateral Commission, cheese-flavored dog food and Pauline Hanson. But don't discount the possibility that I could have come up with the list of exceptions because I'm an incredibly lazy person. Perhaps balancing my life between family and work means I can't spend hours on the many questions here that could answered via the Miata.net FAQ or any of the other useful online resources available here. But as to which one's correct, well, it should be pretty obvious I can't answer that.
bwob
Greg Chronowski, M.D., Philadelphia, PA (soon to be Houston, TX!)
In North America I suspect that the S2000 will be a bigger headache for the likes of the BMW Z3 and - to a lesser degree - the Porsche Boxster. Despite all the concern that the Z3 was going to rob the Miata of sales, it just didn't happen. To be sure, the fact the Z3 is - especially in four-cylinder entry-level form - a pretty miserable car handicapped it from Day One. But the biggest albatross around the neck of the Z3 was price. Ninety-five percent of the time, people will buy the most expensive and 'best' car they can afford. And this merely reinforces a point that many people in development and marketing at car companies either cannot comprehend or ignore; despite the engine capacity, the number of cylinders, seats or whatever, the ONLY market segmentation that today's buyer takes any notice of is price. The explosion of trucks-posing-as-cars is a pretty good manifestation of this.
With the Honda's estimated North American starting price at something like US$33,000 to US$35,000, I doubt it will have much of an effect on the Miata. As I said before, if I was at BMW I'd be worried sick. As a point of comparison, a Miata starts at about AU$40,000, a Z3 is about AU$70,000 and a Boxster AU$110,000. The Honda's estimated price will be about AU$50,000 to AU$55,000. There's not likely to be much of an S2K problem down here, at least for the Miata.
The MR Spider is another thing, however. While it is likely to be priced a lot closer to the Miata, it's a pretty ghastly looking thing in the metal. And the fact it's mid-engine could pose another problem. Many Miata owners have owned two or more Miatas, either consecutively or concurrently. Historically the repeat rate on mid-engine cars is pretty grim, mainly due to the complete lack of flexibility they offer. The MR Spider might have challenged that if it weren't so damn ugly. The looks might keep people away in droves. Then again the Z3 is no beauty, so perhaps somebody will like the MR Spider. But not, I suspect, the sort of person I'd like to know.
bwob
Terry Crane, East Moline, IL
Unless somebody screws the formula up along the way, I don't see why there won't be a 2019 Miata. Maybe Rick Deckard will want to drive one instead of his Spinner.
bwob
Bob Mondschein, St. Louis, MO, USA
Okeh, call me a one trick pony, but I'd love to see a small four-door sedan with a moderately supine seating position for four occupants (no more), with the Miata's suspension and the 'Suzuki version' of Mazda's 2.5 V6 up front driving the rear wheels via a 10AE six-speed. Price it under $25,000 and stand back. It's a reasonable manifestation of my personal philosophy; just say 'no' to trucks.
bwob
John Emerson, Middlebury, Vermont, US
Heck, it was on the cards back in 1986. When work began on studies for the last RX-7 sold in the 'States, the third-generation car, there was a proposal floated by a renegade group to take the Miata floorpan, stretch the wheelbase 150mm and place a new, coupe body on it.
The stretch added 100mm forward of the firewall so the steering rack could be placed ahead of the engine since the Rotary's output shaft is near the engine's geometric center and therefore has to sit a bit low and would foul the rack if the original Miata positions were held. the remaining 50mm were put ahead of the rear axle centerline to allow a bit more legroom. Two engines were proposed; a 13B normally-aspirated rotary which would have offered performance nearly that of the second-generation RX-7 Turbo and a 13B with a single turbo which would have been within a frag of the last RX-7's performance.
Suspension was going to follow the Miata's geometry, but with forged alloy lower control arms, and the brakes were going to be the four-piston gear from the second-generation Turbo car.
Though it never made it to the styling stage, the proposal was for a single, coupe body which would share no exterior panels or glazing with the Miata. Best part was that the basic price would have been just a touch below $19,000 and the Turbo would have resided in the $23,000 to 25,000 range. That compared well with the $30,000 launch price of the last RX-7.
The idea had merit (as well as its supporters) but it also was doomed from the start due to company politics. At that time Mazda was in ostensibly good financial shape, so the idea of something like the RX-7 (the company's image leader) being a 'parts bin' exercise was seen as being inappropriate on a corporate basis. Oh well...
To get back to your question, Mazda hasn't officially said anything, but ex-Ford Truck guy and Mazda hardware Majordomo Martin Leach has been hinting to journalists that Mazda will have "something interesting" at this year's (October) Tokyo Motor Show, And one of his business cards has a sketch of something awfully interesting and it isn't a truck or Sport Utility. Rumor is it will be a concept car a few (short) steps away from production.
The name 'RX-8' was investigated when the last car was done, and it tested badly with customers. Maybe the show car will be called RX-8, but there's still a ton of equity - and brand visibility - in 'RX-7' if the car makes it into production. Regardless of what it may be called, we can only hope...
bwob
Mark Hinton, Prattville/Al/USA
Three reasons. Cost, cost and cost. Another factor was that at the time there were also some EXCELLENT H1 and H4 replacement headlamp units for the old round 7-inch unit (like the Cibie Biode and Marchal Ampilux), and having decent headlamps was a real point of concern with original program manager Hirai. With the big units an owner could easily (and simply) get some serious night lighting gear while the money saved could be used by Hirai-san for more work on the chassis.
bwob
Tim Seiler, San Ramon, CA USA
Hmmm. To what degree? Well, in terms of degrees, I'd say '360'. The launch dates of some of these cars would give Fiat (Barchetta), BMW(Z3), MG (MGF) and Mercedes(CLK) plenty of time to look at the market the Miata was reviving and research their own products. I suspect that the Miata's appearance might have influenced the Boxster coming out the way it did (as a dedicated open car), but in any event Porsche was in a position where it had to get a less expensive car out in the market. I'd also wager that Mercedes-Benz might have looked at market and was probably considering more at what BMW was doing with the Z3 than any work of Mazda's on the Miata other than the original trailblazing. But I have no doubt whatsoever that there'd be no Fiat Barchetta, MGF or BMW Z3 if there was no Miata.
bwob
In the late 70's/early 80's, Mazda was maybe more known around the world for its batteries than its cars. What pushed the management of one of the smallest Japanese car manufacturer to invest time and money onto developing from scratch (new platform), a vehicle that most constructor believed was a concept from the past with no future?
Stephan Guillou, Atlanta, Georgia
Actually, Mazda was pretty well known in the late 1970s and early 1980s. It's experiences with the Rotary (first seen in volume export in 1970) and subsequent flirtation with bankruptcy placed it pretty prominently - for may of the wrong reasons - in the public and investor's eye. Oh, and the guys doing the batteries were another Mazda. That's why the car's had to be marketed under the 'Engines Mazda" term in France and French territories.
Buy why did they do it? I suspect the fact that at that time Mazda wasn't a company that was afraid to take chance. The passion of the people promoting the project also wasn't lost on Mazda's top management, especially Senior Managing Director (later President, later yet Chairman of the Board) Yamamoto and Hardware bossman Yamanouchi.
And while the platform was indeed all new, the project was really quite economically executed. The total cost was an eyebrow-raiser, even to top management.
bwob
Bob Hotaling, Orlando, FL
Hey, it's my pleasure!
Well, the small black front and rear extensions which were offered as a dealer potion were in fact planned as part of the original proposal, but they got fouled up on two points. One was cost (which may seem like a small thing but when you're doing a car which has to be affordable, a couple of bucks here and there, multiplied over the whole thing can be disastrous.
The other reason was because of the tow hooks. Though they're convenient as all get out for towing, the real reason they're on the Miata (or any other Mazda) to to fasten the car down for the boat ride from Hiroshima to the 'States. Or wherever. You want to make sure every single car is lashed down in a transport ship. Especially if you hit rough water. One 'free' car can destroy a deckful as it becomes a one-ton marble. The problem was that the original tow hook placement was to be under the car and the lip extension would foul the connection of the tow hook to the restraining gear on the transport ships.
That's a tough call. I suspect that the M2 will age more rapidly than the original did, but if Mazda keep an eye on it and do more 'maintenance' (freshening the colors and trim regularly so that each year becomes a sort of 'special edition', or adding a bit more performance within the concept of the car) they should do well pretty well. I also think that the next big change will come sooner for M2 than the wait from launch of the first-generation car to today's.
bwob
Jon Law, Beaverton, OR
That's the first time I've ever heard that one, so I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the video. Considering the Miata I know took about a decade to go from a chalkboard scribble to introduction, the sort of intervention you described should have compressed the time scale somewhat. My guess is we'd be up to about a million Miatas by now if it were true. I'd probably still be with Mazda if the car had gotten out of the blocks quicker too.
By the same token I have no doubt whatsoever that other people had the same idea for an inexpensive sports car. I know as fact a clique of designers at Honda's R&D Center in Wako were trying - without success - to float a project quite similar to the Miata beginning in 1982. But Mazda had (and may still have for all I know) a policy of not even perusing unsolicited proposals after the company was taken to court by an individual who said the 'idea' of the first 626 was his and insisted he had mailed a proposal to Mazda on it.
Mazda's first sponsorship of a design competition didn't come about till the late 1980s (after the Miata had been frozen and was beginning tooling) when Mazda supported a graduation project for students at the Art Center College of Design. That sort of manufacturer-backed school program is the norm at places like Art Center, The Center for Creative Arts in Detroit and London's Royal College of Art. The benefit offered by these programs is less for the company than the students, as it forces them to take into account the realities of designing a car to accommodate things like the powertrain, suspension (not to mention movement in the car of same). Unfortunately many second- and even third-year design school students are still doing more pretty shapes than buildable cars. Usually it takes anywhere from 6- to 18-months to get a newly-hired designer up to speed with how a car actually goes together to get useable input on anything more than details (taillamps, trim, wheel design and the like).
Any manufacturer that would use student proposals for a production project would have to be really far down on the evolutionary scale of producing cars to even attempt to try such a stunt. Mazda might have been there in the mid- to late-1960s, but rather than go that route the company hired Italy's Bertone to do design work for it, continuing with Italian proposals up to and including the first V6 929. But despite million-dollar a clay model price tags for the "Italian Connection", by the late 1970s the proposals were rejected far more often than they were accepted. By the early 1970s Mazda had more than enough internal design talent and ability to hold its own, even after the tough times of 1973-5.
bwob
Thomas Pannenbaecker, Germany
Thomas, if the airdam you're referring to is the small black lip extension to the front and rear of the car, it was planned to be part of the package. The elimination was based on problems encountered when the car were transported by sea, which in Mazda's case that means a lot of domestic cars, too - being on the Seto Inland Sea it's far more economical for Mazda to ship many of it's cars to places in Japan by water than by truck or rail. There was also a price concern too. The priority was towards function (in the context of the driveline and suspension), so some cosmetic factors were given a back seat. And the Miata's a two-seater.
bwob
Rebecca Kasapidis, Naples/FL/USA
Rod Bymaster with what was then Mazda Motor of America (the US importer) came up with Miata looking for something that started with M. He stumbled across this obscure word from old High German meaning reward or prize. We wanted to call it "1600S" (and labeled it as such with the number plates we put on the last clay model) which was decidedly un-sexy, while a sizeable faction in Japan wanted to call it RX-5 even though it wasn't Rotary powered. I'm glad we lost.
bwob
Todd Murray, Brookfield, WI
God, I hope not. As neat as such a vehicle seems to the enthusiast in me, it's just not a viable economic proposition for a company with Mazda's cost structures. The Miata is about as basic as it dare be and still have a supportable customer base. An often forgotten aspect of the original car's draft was that it had to be a good Corolla. For many Miata owners (maybe most on a global basis) it's their only car, so it has to offer a basic level of minimum daily function for shopping, commuting and the like. That's what was meant as it had to be a good Corolla. The Miata virtues that everybody gets excited about are the emotive ones, but without the 'inner Corolla', Mazda wouldn't have made half a million of them. And counting.
bwob
Jens Heydel, Danbury CT U.S.A.
Well, Mark Jordan is six-foot three or four...
No, the fact the Miata had weight targets to meet meant that there were size targets too. And within the size parameters there would be limits as to how much length would be allowed for the cabin. But don't forget that NO car has more headroom on a sunny day...
bwob
Eric Ocampo, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
I know I'm gonna catch flak from some folks on this, to me forced induction isn't part of what the Miata is. Note the use of the term 'to me'. I've always felt that if you can't go fast on 90hp, 900 isn't gonna help you, so I'd much rather have a well-balanced car that's a delight to drive around town than a blistering fast Miata. There's a balance offered up by the bits and pieces that make the car, and that's what the Miata is all about. If you NEED 250hp, that's great but it ain't a Miata anymore as far as Mrs. Hall's son is concerned. Don't forget that Mazda used to make a GREAT 250hp sports car that was delightfully well-balanced and a ball buster, to boot. But when all was said and done, not enough people bought RX-7s in the 'States to make it an on-going proposition.
Having said that, I also think the Miata might find a real sweet spot with a 2.0litre four. I've driven a 2.0 four-cylinder Miata that was superbly done (even though it isn't a Mazda engine) here in Australia. The car actually worked better than a 1.8 M1. The engine was normally aspirated, compliant with our smog laws (about the same as the California 1984 levels) and was dynoed at 148hp at the rear wheels. Suspension had been upgraded with Jackson racing parts and the car was riding on 195/50 15 Continental(!?!?) SportContact rubber that was well matched with the rest of the car. I was highly impressed with the driveability, performance and the fact the car's overall balance was maintained. Moving the car 'up' to 2.0 litres would also allow the 'room' to revive the 1.6 litre car, too.
Mystique, perhaps not. The balance that can only come from an all-too-rare combination of skill and emotion on the part of people developing a mass-market product? Yup, that's been tossed out the window. And it's the basic fabric of the Miata.
bwob
Ray, Atlanta,GA,USA
Huh? The GTO? Yeah, probably. Almost as many people take credit for the GTO as the Mustang and Miata. I wouldn't be surprised if I've got a distant cousin, thrice removed who's taken credit for it. Maybe even the Ferrari one.
bwob
Todd Murray, Brookfield, WI USA
I"m wholeheartedly in the "A" camp. The Z3 is the closest thing to the Miata in the "States right now and it"s about $10,000 more expensive. I don"t think many folks expect a $22,000 car to compete with a $32,000 car, but the Miata makes a good (no, great) showing against the 1.9 litre four-cylinder Z3. I might be wrong, but I don"t think that there"s a lot of cross-shopping between Miata and, say, Boxster. So what European competition are you speaking of?
Here in Australia the closest competitor to the Miata (just MX-5 here) is the MGF. In basic form it"s about AU$3700 (US$2400) more than a Miata, 1.5 seconds slower to 62mph, 2.1seconds in the standing-start 400metre (roughly a 1/4mile). The VVC version offers more competitive performance despite a AU$12,000 price premium over the Miata, taking the same time to 62mph (8.8 seconds), is 0.1 second slower in the 400metre sprint. However, disregarding the MGF"s superb ride the VVC is, like the base MGF, an absolute pus bucket to drive; miserable gearchange and dull steering with loads of understeer. And I won"t mention the "best of British" quality, if I may dare use the q word. Come to think of it, I"m still waiting for a competitor to the Miata - European or otherwise - that's worthy of being considered a genuine competitor. The Honda S2000 is going to be more a Z3 destroyer than Miata rival.
The oft-mentioned Mazda 2.5 V6 into Miata engine swap is a real blue-sky project. The K series Mazda V6 (built in 1.8, 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 litre versions) was designed solely for transverse, front-drive applications, sitting angled over at 11 to 17 degrees (to ease packaging in a transverse layout) so the oiling galleries and passages were designed to be living at a slant. Placing the engine "upright" would alter the lubrication properties radically. Mazda Australia"s competition department worked on one but gave up after about six months, bamboozled by the inability to get oil to where it had to be when it had to be there in the engine. Like at high rpm.
An potentially more reasonable small V6 swap would be to use the 2.0 or 2.5 litre V6 fitted to the Suzuki Sidekick/Vitara/Escudo. This engine was designed solely for longitudinal installation, sitting "upright". There's a Mazda connection, too. All of Mazda"s 660cc kei jidosha models sold in Japan are built by Suzuki. In exchange Mazda supplies Suzuki with most of the moving components (pistons, con rods, crank camshafts - with a specific grind and lifters), then drop them into the Suzuki designed block and heads. Some of the bits (crank and con rods, for example) are shared with the Mazda 2.0 and 2.5 K-series engines.
The only potential headaches come from the tall induction plenum - good for torque but perhaps tough to package under the Miata"s hood and the block"s deep skirt means that a dry sump would be on the shopping list. Which means expensive. Mazda"s forthcoming small and simple Rotary sportscar is likely to do the job as well while leaving "space" in the market for the Miata.
bwob
Frank Morris, Phoenix, Arizona
Hey, so would I. But at what price? There's no way that Mazda (or any other company interested in making a profit, and believe me, after Mazda's last near-death experience, they DO like making a profit) would serve up another few dozen horsepower - not to mention the various peripheral upgrades to make sure the additional power was within the vehicle's parameters - as a freebie.
So what would you pay? If you'd fork out $2,500 more for a five percent improvement, then why not $5,000 to go 15+percent (usually the increases cost more as the percentage increases - it's not at all linear)? But some folks might want more than that. So let's say you drop a 3.0 litre V6 in it, revise the suspension with forged aluminum control arms to beef things up and keep weight down. Wrap it up in a new body and (because it'll cost more) upgrade interior materials for a more upmarket look. Introducing the $37,000 Miata. Now how many folks will line up for that? I suspect not enough to make it commercially viable against a 'name' rival like the Z3.
Also, if the Miata moves up the food chain like that, where do the entry-level buyers go who are essential to maintaining the viability of the market segment for everybody (including Mazda with the upcoming new Rotary sports car)? Mazda certainly can't gamble, say, $500,000,000 on the new Rotary car if there's not going to be an available migration path from current (and future) Miata owners.
No, the 'everyone' you speak of is probably only a percentage of the currently installed base, not people still on the 'outside'. And those people who don't have a Miata (yet) are the ones who keep the car you love so much in production while their demand keeps the resale value up. To keep the segment alive, you need an entry-level model, and the Miata fits that bill pretty well. It also get folks into the Mazda fold who otherwise might not consider the brand. That exposure to new blood in your customer base is VERY important for a brand's survival nowadays.
bwob
You must have seen the rear fog light in the European M1 MX-5s. Not the most attractive of the details in the car... do you know how did it end up the way it is?
JP Mannermaa, Porvoo, Finland
TERVE! When the car was being developed and had been described to them, the European importers were not especially interested in what became the Miata. That meant that E-mark lighting regs were not taken into account when the earliest design work was being undertaken. After the design had been frozen - and tooling had begun - the car was shown to the European importers who promptly went tapioca over it. So a quick, inexpensive solution had to be found. And it was. Less than elegant, to be sure.
bwob
How many BRG Miata M1's were sold In Australia? and what is the top speed of a MX5 on the speed bowl at GMH proving ground in Lang Lang?
ATLAS KING, AUSTRALIA
In the first go-around (the 1.6litre 1991 car), numbers were allocated for 300 cars, but in the event it appears only 251 were imported. The 1991 Australian cars all had a unique, numbered wood gear knob, keyed to the car's build sequence. In 1996-7 Mazda Australia did a second run of BRG cars, this time 1.8s. The second batch involved fewer cars (from 75 to 150 cars, depending who you ask - I've got inquiries into Japan on this), and they were unnumbered. The 1.8s all had tan tops.
The record of an MX5 at General Motors' high-speed oval at Lang Lang, Victoria is 215.7km/h (116.4mph), made in windy, unfavorable conditions. The record is held by a bloke named David McCarthy who's not only as knowledgeable about things automotive as anyone I've ever met, but is a damn good egg I'm honored and privileged to consider a friend.
bwob
John
Aahhh! Another happy delSol owner.
bwob
| Back to Ask Bob! | 02 March, 2000 |
| [Home] - [FAQ] - [Search] - [Sponsors] - [Forums] |
| [Garage] - [Clubs] - [Contact Us] - [Disclosures] - [More...] |
Copyright
©1994-2024, Eunos Communications LLC
|