From: Gary Fischman
Subject: Re: del Sol Superior....
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:52:11 -0400

Todd Leavitt wrote:
>
> =09
> OK... I happened to stumble across this mailing list wondering around
> the web and I am here I guess to fix the myths that I saw floating
> around in the back messages about the Honda del Sol... and give a
> comparison...
>

Todd sent me mail a couple of weeks back suggesting that I post a link to
the DelSol page on the Miata.net list of other car info. I agreed to do
so and I mentioned that I didn't really think there was that much of a
comparison between the two. Todd's reply seemed to indicate that he felt
much like I do - that it is kinda silly to get into these sort of
contests about which is better.

So, Todd, why did you go and start a flame on our mailing list? Has this
been tearing you apart for the past few weeks? Or maybe you're insanely
jealous that only 5608 people have seen your Web page in 3 months
compared to the 23,000 that saw Miata.net in April alone? Nyah, nyah,
nyah! Ours is bigger, ours is bigger. :)

Maybe we can grow up and enjoy the car of our choice. If you're happy
with your Del Sol, great. If you're not, buy something else. I'm happy
with my Miata and there's nothing anyone can say to me to change that. I
don't really care about specs - I like my car.

...Gary (stepping down from soap box.)

-------------------------

The punchline:
From: Miq Millman
Subject: Re: del Sol Superior....
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 18:55:55 -0400

(This might be a bit long, but I make some important points that needed to be
addressed......)

By crikey, I think yer right about sum o' dis stuff, Todd me boy! I think
you've stumbled onta sumthin big!

Todd's "Vunder Messache #1":
> OK... I happened to stumble across this mailing list wondering around
> the web and I am here I guess to fix the myths that I saw floating
> around in the back messages about the Honda del Sol... and give a
> comparison...

Yeah, I been wonderin about that that web stuff fer a while too. Course me
'n my ADM3A don't have no browzer ta use, an I don't figger on wantin ta use
one at 1200 baud, but yer certianly right, there is a bunch o myths out
there floatin aroun'. Or maybe I jes fergot to flush agin.....My old mellon
gits so addled up these days.

>
> To start off... they are different cars but then again they are the
> same...

Yup, gotta agree there. Both use gas, both gots four tahr-things, both can't
hold none of my goats or llamas. But one comes in my favrite color: John
Deere green, and one don't.

> My comparison listed below are of my best friends 92 Miata (116 HP
> model?)...

[whole buncha confusin' numbers an scientific junk deleted, whacha tryin ta
do boy? Bust one o' my remainin brain cells?]

Yep yer right again, yer bran-new

> To address another issue I was reading... trunk space... the del Sol
> has 1 cubic foot less trunk space then the Honda Civic coup. As I recall
> my friend Miata did not even have enough room to fit a few large beach
> towels.

Ah ha! and yoove got one whole cubic foot more! Yep I did have a trubble or
two getting my dirty laundry ta fit in dat li'l old trunk, mebbe I should ov
left my catheter and oxygen tank at home, but then how'd I be able ta handle
the powerful like cornerin ability of my Miater? Can you swing by my place
tha next time I gots ta load four beach towels in tha trunk? I kin put two
in my car, and two in yerz and then you cud hold my colostamy bag in tha
extra space.
 

> Suspension: The del Sol of course has double wishbone suspension that
> is built lie a race car (very tight). It comes with front and rear

Double wishbone....now you've got me thinking of Thanksgivin and turkey, and
boy am I hungry. Hold on a sec, I gotta get me some oatmeal (don't got no
teeth no more, gotta stick wif dem soft foodz)

(few minutes later.......)

Where wuz we? Oh yeah, wishbones....I'm purty sure dem's da same as A-arms,
an I'm purty sure I saw a whole passel of em unner ole Betsy my Miater lass
time I looked.
 

> anti-sway bars and ABS brakes. My front calipers on my Sol are about the
> size of the Miatas 13 inch wheels while the rear are smaller, they are

Oh dat's one o' yer problemz, youve gone an confused the Miata with the Geo
Metro! The Metro's is the onez with the teeny tiny wheels, the Miata's have
14 or 15 inch wheels like normal cars. An' why would you be braggin about
plastic brakes? I gots me some ABS pipes in the outhouse, but I don't tell
no one but Mr. Septic bout that.

Miater's got anti-lock brakes jes like most cars these days. An' looky
there, they also got two of them air-bag things. Will the wonders of modern
science never cease? Marvelous.

> also innercooled. I recall reading someone say that the CRX owners are

Intercooled? Nifty! So's you gots little bitty radiator things on each of
yer brakes? No wunder then Dul Slo's is so slow, err I mean after tryin ta
stop of course.

> disappointed with the del Sol's handling, this is a little bull... My
> CRX and any CRX I have ever been in do not even compare. However, when

What you mean that CRX owners ain't disappointed in the Dul Slo's handling?
You mean all them articles and letters I seen on the autox list was wrong?
Well, slap my nanny and call me silly, you learnz sumpin new everyday.
Thanks fer clearin up that li'l misunnerstandin.

> the top is off, their is a little more body roll that might bring it
> down to a CRX stature. I have literally taken 90 degree turns at 30+
> miles an hour, but I also have Antera wheels and ZR rated tires.=20

30+ MILES AN HOUR?!?!? Are you daft boy? Don't you know only sports cars is
supposed ta drive that fast? Well, its a good thing you got those extra
heavy Antlar wheels and ZR rated tires (ain't they good for doin turns at
sumpin like hunnerd-an-fifty miles in a row? sumpin like dat). Oh an why
would you rip the top off a CRX? Ain't they a li'l ole hatchback car? I'm
confused again. You gotz ta slow down when talkin ta us boy.

> The other parts of the VTEC are the usual Honda quality... the interior
> of the del Sol is absolutely incredible and I have NEVER been in a car
 

Well dat's another of yer prollems boy! You ain't never been in a better car
den yer Dul Slo. Go turn that sucker in and get yourself a Miater.

> with a more comfortable fit. My friends of 6'4+ have NO problem fitting
> in the passenger side. The entire car raps around the driver as the

Oh you must be one of them Boom-chucka-lucka-boom yo-mobile drivers what with
the rappin and creakin yer Dul Solo is making, I wonder how your six friends
fit with all that starey oh quipment in the car?

> seats are know to be some of the best most conforming to the body made.
> The interior is quite (VERY unlike my friends Miata) even while driving
> 135 on the interstate.=20

Yeah it is quite, uh quite let's see, quite strange if you ask me, big ole
red stripes down the center of the seats. Yep, my Miata ain't got no two
tone interior, no sir ree bob. An hey whats you doing on interstate 135?
That ain't in Oregon. Whooohoo! you mean you been drivin that fast? What
with all them ruttabega's and Miata's in your way? You is definitely too hot
fer my potatos.
 

> Looks... I ask you to view my web page listed below. I run the largest

I alreddy tol ya, I don't got no web browzer on dis ask key terminal.

> Sol Page on the web and I have talked to over a thousand owners from
> around the world. I ask you to visit my page and look at the pictures of
> my del Sol and the others I have up. I guess you can say.. to each his

I looked at a couple pictures of a del slo, but never on a full stomache. I
have ta say that green sure is swell tho, I think it would look nifty with a
big ole yella scrapper blade on tha front, jes like my John Deere tractor.

> own, but comparing to looks of a del Sol to the Miata is crazy... The

Sure is crazy, one's a roadster, an one has a big ole toaster on the back.

> del Sol is well known as the MOST aerodynamic cars made (I will discuss

Most aerodynamic? reely? Wow, anudder new one ta learn.

> this below) and it's contours are the essence of beauty... from the

Well, them things is got tha essence of somethin, but we is in mixed company,
so that's best left unsaid, son.

> flared out front wheel which are not found on any other Honda that gives

Could this be for a good reason you think?

> down. The del Sol is more convertible then many think... when the top is
> off and the window is down, all that remains is a roll bar above the
> divers head about 4 inches thick... I would call it almost a complete

Your head is only 4 inches thick? Well that explains a bunch too.

> convertible...
> REPARE RECORD: Like I said above, I have talked with thousands of del
> Sol owners and I also run a del Sol Problems page where EVERY thing
> wrong with the del Sol is listed. They are these things: The Targa top

You mean everything you've heard of.

> begins to rattle and leak (leak is actually fixed by Honda and never
> leaks again), fog lights burn out quickly. THAT IS IT... in 4 years of

Heck son, cum on over ta my farm, I kin fix all yer problems too, I just hook
my 9 blade harrow to the back of my John Deere (which is painted the same
color as your Dul Slo I hafta add) and chop that buggy up so much you won't
never have ta drive it no more.

> models... that is all that has ever happened to a del Sol. I have NEVER
> heard of any type of engine problem, it is a HONDA.

HONDA, issn't that the big fat sumo wrestlin guy in that vidy oh game?

> Sports Car question??? Someone commented about a sports car being front
> wheel drive... hmmmm.... I would call the Acura NSX a sports car but
> HEY... it has the 6 cylinder version of my exactly the same 4 cylinder.

Oh now yer confusin me again, sonny. Acura NSX's? 6 cylinders the same as 4
cylinders? I don't see what either of these has ta do with the glorious Del
Monte, err Sol?

> Believe it or not but many parts on the del Sol VTEC are clones of the
> NSX, engine is identical in it's engineering and suspension. I also

I don't believe it.

> believe that the Northstar Caddie's do just fine with front wheel drive
> and 300 HP.

Well good for you. You keep believein that then....

>
> COMPARISON TIME....
>
> OK.. here we go, this is where I will get a little controversial to you
> MIATA owners but you need someone to smack you in the face and actually

OW! hey cut that out, I thought we wuz talkin, not fightin here.

> give you a view of your car from the other side. Since you have bashed

other side? Hmmm could that be like the tail pipe side?

> crazy rumors I was reading.

Crazy man, crazy.

> 1) aerodynamics: When driving in my friends Miata, my 6' body was large
> enough that my head actually stuck above the roof... this made the ride
> VERY windy and WAY to much wind was entering the cabin. In my del Sol
> with the top off, and all 3 windows down, my hear is SLIGHTLY ruffled...
> not even to the point of messing my hair up.

Son, son, son, You got it all wrong, that Del Sol is tha one with the big
hoop in back of the driver, I think you were drivin the Miata backwards.
That was the windshield behind your head. No wonder you were so
uncomfortable and windy. Now what does hearing have ta do with hair? or do
you have one of them new fangles hearing aids that clips behind your ears and
have to cover it with hair? I got that prollem too.
 

> 2) SPEED: Common the Miata was PITIFUL... mw and my friend enjoyed

There may be 400,000 Miata's out there, but they ain't that common, not for a
car that's been built for seven years now. Now John Deere's. They's common.

> dragging after work EVERY day... I raced him in my automatic 93 del Sol

If'n you'd release the parking brake, it wouldn't drag so much, and then your
cars would go faster.

> Si with 125HP. He would always get the head start because of his stick,

Well don't let him hit you with no stick. Didn't you say you was gunna smack
us back?

> I would start, not from the e-brake but from a dead stop with my foot on

That's good, the e-brake slows you down, jes like I toll ya up there.

> which have rail road track running across the center of the turn. Once
> we hit the turns, I was gone, his Miata just could not handle as good as

Maybe he didn't have a 4" thick head, and didn't want to destroy his car
driving over railroad tracks in the winter?

> my friend quit that job (winter also), I have not had a chance to paste
> him in the VTEC... there is no real need. However I have actually let
> him drive the VTEC and he was impressed in EVERY way, except the fact
> that he likes his complete convertible.

But aside from likin his car more, he was certianly impressed with your John
Deere green Del Sol, right? You acksholly let him drive? A Miata owner?

Boy you are brave, now I'm reel impressed too.

> While riding with him, I was stunned at the fact that the Miata engine
> starts winning like a little puppy at 90 MPH... COMMON... I drive 90 as
> a regular habit, my VTEC hits that win around 125.

I wuzzint aware that puppies won much these days. And with the speed limit
being 65 pmh in the rural areas (where I live don cha know) I'd have ta say
that 90 MPH ain't all that common.

So what duz you win at 125? A free visit to the local gendarms? a free day
in jail with three meals? A free bonk on the head from a telephone pole?
Inquirin minds like mine wanna know.

> You want to know the top speed of my stock del Sol, I can't tell you...

Good, cus I don't want to know.

> I have hit 135 @ 7,000 RPM..... since my red line is 8,200, you can see
> that I had a little bit more. I plan on taking a picture if this soon so
> you can keep an eye on my page.

I told you three times now, I don't have no web browzer. But please send
that photo to me here:

Ole Geezer Miq c/o
Portland City Police Bureau
1111 SW 2nd Ave
Portland, OR

My buddies there will know just what to do, and get that pickcher to me.

> STYLE: Maybe this stems from the fact that I see Miatas all of the time
> but I have grown VERY sick of seeing them, they are TOO SMALL PERIOD....

What does the number of cars on the road have to do with their size? Other
than bein able ta stick more on tha same stretch o road. I think yer
sickness is from somethin else lad. Why else would you confuse these issues
with style?

> People tell me how small my car is but even I feel like giant driving by

Well, when I come barrelin by in my John Deere 6245 with its 84" tall tires,
you'll feel really small, let me tell you.

> one. I do not like the body shape... I do not see why it is called a
> roadster... give a car rear wheel drive and I guess it is some how
> something else.... my friends Miatas rear swings around wildly when he

It's called a roadster because it has a top that stows away behind the seats,
and not a big toaster for the rear window. Sheesh.

> floors it of the line. I dare ask you to take a look at the front of a
> Miata and then look at the front of a del Sol... which one looks more
> aerodynamic? Which one looks sportier... Which one looks buffer... which
> one OBVIOUSLY has more room under the trunk (I STILL HAVE NO IDEA HOW
> THEY HAVE FIT A V8 in a MIATA!)... if they can do that to a Miata then
> I'm gonna go look for a V10 or V12 (BMW?)

Well I think you jes answered yer own questions here, Todd. Or waz you jes
tryin ta fool me agin? The Miata, obviously. But as they say looks can be
deceevin, after all I thought that green car I saw the other day was a large
toaster, and here you are tellin me its a sports car.

> GOOD: I like the complete convertibility of the Miata, but this is
> nothing special, many cars have this feature. It has a large following

But not yer Del Slo. Course that new crysler sher looks good, an looks is
tha only thing right? (see Toad an' Crack June 1996)
 

> BAD: It does not have enough balls, it is too small, including the cab,
> the trunk. In a car this size, the rear wheel drive is useless... I can

By gods, your right. I went an looked at my Miata, I din't find no balls on
it. You know what? I don't think cars have a gender! I think cars is made
in a factory, and they's all the same sex (or no sex). I looked at my John
Deere too, din't find no balls there, cept for the fringe around the cabin.

Now I know, your sayin my John Deere ain't no Del Slo, but I have ta tells
ya, they's both green, an thanks ta yer Del Sol's front wheel drive, both of
em plow real good.

> understand it if it had more balls and was a Corvette (even though I
> have a faster 0-60 then the lower model Corvettes). I will make some
> more clear below.

Good cuz I doan understan what cher talkin about now. What's corvettes got
ta do with Del Slos or Miaters?

> OVER ALL:
>
> The Miata just does not hack it, it is a car that is not practical for

Who want's practical? That's what my John Deere is for.

> not a foul weather car. It is a cars who's ownership, especially in this

I drives me Miata year round, cept when I'm in fer prostrate treatments, or
ta get me oxygen tank refilled.

> neck of the woods is dominated by the mid-aged, mid life crises
> generation, targeted toward the "baby boomers" as a second car. Common,

Yep I agrees with ya here, them young baby boomers sure is common.

> months ago. There was about 100 Miatas and the average age was at least
> 60 so you cannot tell me this is not true. It is not a practical car for

Them was the younger ones, Me? I'm nearing 80 this next summer (ifn I make
it that long). Course the colastomy bag, catheter and oxygen tanks do slow
my Miata down some, (hey meybe it my Miata youse been seein round these
parts! That wood certianly splain sum of yer thinkin)

> everyday use, you cannot go to the store and pick up groceries. Maybe

Sure you can.

> completely convertible but as someone else mentioned, the 97 del Sol
> will also be. I serially believe that many of you have been "duped" by

I think you've been duped into thinking your Del Slo was somthing we Miata
owners wanted ta hear about.

> cohesive group. To end it all, I see my friend sneaking peeks at my Sol
> every time we get together to have an A-Fuente cigar and some white
> Zinfedel, he admits that the car is VERY exceptional and he admits that

Yeah, exceptionally green and toasterish. Though I don't put the opinion of
anyone that's smoking drugs and sloshed on booze too highly....

> the Miata is a great car that occupies a market niche that was not there
> before.

Yep, you've finally figured it out here, The Miata is a great car, and it
occupies the sports car convertible market that hadn't been 'round since them
limey blokes quit makin them MG's.
 

> The del Sol is probably directly comparable in performance and
> handling to the Miata... you should be happy to this because it is the

Now here your arguin with every thin you jes said.

> highest model Sol. The VTEC is for those with a lot more money and don't

Lot more money than sense?

> mind a bumpy ride and an engine that literally roars when the VTEC kicks
> in at 6,600 RPM. The VTEC model engine is actually annoyingly loud. Feel

It kicks in at 6600? what about all the time below that? What a pitiful
waste. So sad. You know what else is annoying? I'll give you one guess.

> interior is conforming and very quite. The body style is on of the most
> aerodynamic made (at 135, not a rattle), and it has a distinct body

What does driving on highway 135 (some bumpy road I'd imagine given your ride
quality and rattles) have to do with aerodynamics? Again you confuse this
old net codger, son.

> LASTELY: I think both the del Sol and Miata's are great cars and will
> hopeful bring the reemergence of the sports car a boost

Well you got that half right, at least.

Todd's "Vunder messache #2"

>
> I was reading some of the most unintelligent rumors about the del
> Sol... I have to respond and educate some people...
>
> The distribution on the del Sol is 60% front and 40% rear... that is
> not that much worse then your 50/50. I believe the TRUE definition of a

Hmmm, I think I'm gettin more confused by tha minute. I think that 60/40 is
just about as bad a ratio as you can get in a car. Less'n yer gonna drive
one o dem pickem up trucks er sumpin. But demz trucks, not sports cars.

> sports car is one that is fast and handles good... both the del Sol and

Fast don't have nuttin ta do wif it. Are you going to say that an Austin
Healey Sprite ain't no sports car? Or a Triumph Spitfire? Those wasn't no
speed deamons dats fer sher.

> the Miata do this. The VTEC happens to do it better. Like I said before,

What have a worse balance than the Miata? No arguements here.

> funny thing is that if either of our cars weighed 500 pounds more, they
> would not even closely be considered a sports car... it's defiantly in

Oh but yers duz weigh 500 pounds more, you have to haul that huge ego around
in it.

>
> Gladly, as EVERYONE but a Miata owner knows.... your Miata does not
> even compare to my VETC model... you can race as many si and S models
> that you want but plain and simple, the VTEC IS a four cylinder race car
> with the most efficient 4 cylinder engine made) Any VETC would paste a

Liar, liar pant's on fire. Check out the some of the other Honda line cars,
they get better gas mileage, so do a bunch of the Geo's, and take a look at
sum o dem Formula One racin cars, they have more power.

> Miata including the Prelude and Integra... common... there is doubt
> about this...We are also talking stock... Read Road and Track...

Paste? Is this some new fangled vernacular by you young wippersnappers for
crashing into us law abidin folks drivin sanely? I don't doubt it given the
poor handling capabilities and the excessive speedin yer braggin about.

>
> power with great handling... You are witnessing the start of the del Sol
> cause... My web page is the largest on the web and I am getting MANY

No, I think I'm a witnessin the start of a troll and a flame war. Too bad
there ain't no Del Slo mail list fer me ta clog up.

> advertisers wishing for time, I have already received many free products
> including a clear targa top that goes for $700. Remember, the Sol has

So this is just another one of yer scams ta git more free bread fer your
giant green toaster?

> only been out for 3 years... There still is plenty of time... If you

Yeah, an it's gunna be gone next year.

> look at the web.. you will find the LARGEST number of web sites devoted
> to Hondas... there are some great Miata ones that I enjoy also... I even
> print them out form my buddy with a Miata...

Say, cud you print me a couple of web sites? I tol ya I doan got no browzer.
Send em to dat Portland Police address I gave ya earlier....

> SIMPLE statistics, I have talked with over a thousand del Sol owners...

Son, there ain't nuthin simple bout statistics. Look at yer math below:

> In all of those, I have talked with 2 (yes two) female owners. I have 50
> peoples setup on my page, one of which is female... I would estimate the
> actual distribution at about (75% male, 25% Female).

2 outa fifty ain't no way 25%, it's four percent. Doan be talkin what ya
don't know. (dis is gud advice fer other aspects of yer posts too, sonny)

>
> Ya... I also my fall in the trap you mentioned above about the female
> part but it is a fact that most Miata owners are older couples who use
> it as a second sports car to their normal car... The other distribution

Hey! them's fightin wordz! You callin my John Deere a normal car? Step out
side bub, I'm gonna wallup you wif my colastomy bag.

>
>
> Common, this is a bunch of bull... this is one of the funniest

Yep, bull's is common 'round where I live, you shore you ain't been drivin
yer green toaster mobile round my farm?

> statements I have ever heard... I might place this quote on my page for
> all del Sol owners to laugh at... Like I said before... VTEC is Hondas

Well, after making the car choice they did, I'd reckon they need something to
laugh at.

> alternative to a turbo that kicks out as much horsepower and is much
> more reliable. Honda came out with the VTEC model one year later then
> the first del Sol model for INSURANCE reasons. Honda saw the increasing

I doubt the vtec was made for insurance reasons.

> insurance cost of the CRX model and wanted the del Sol to come out with
> lower insurance... this indeed did work... When the VTEC model came out,
> the insurance companies did not notice and it kept the insurance price

The insurance folks is a dim witted bunch. Why, I betcha a whole bunch of
them drive Del Slo's.

> down... it was an ingenious move... I would also not call the Integra
> GS-R, Prelude VTEC, del Sol VTEC, and the Acura NSX... "normal Hondas".
> I have heard statistics that only 4000 VTEC del Sols were sold world

Could be a nudder reason only 4000 was sold, maybe, they's bad cars? naw
couldn't be that.....

I heard that 70% of all statistics is a lie. Whaddaya think of that, sonny?

> Honda del Sol VTEC... Mustang 5.0 smasher.....

Again with the smashing and pasting, Son you better slow down or get yerself
a car that can handle them speeds you insist on drivin. Maybe a Miata.